Transcript

Hi and Welcome to Etv Power Women. Now you’ve heard our introduction to our next guest so I’m just gonna drive straight and start talking to you. Dr Sujatha Gamage welcome to the show. That’s lovely to have you here. I wanted to start off actually by asking, coz you are in a very interesting field at the moment. I wanted to know how does one go from doing a PHD in Chemistry to now doing Knowledge management working in local government?

Right actually my friends my scientist friends call me a Scientist Gonbad. Yes I went from science to administration of science. Then you start looking at the science resources. You look at studying scientists. I was in the U.S. That’s how I got into that. I probably would have never made this journey if I did not go to the U.S. There you know the government is very keen to know how many scientist you have in a given time, what they are doing, how their connected, the government also is very keen on you know, I was at the state of Ohayo in the U.S. So there were opportunities to administer research. NO we define research as Knowledge. Because to capture broader range of things. So then you look to see where’s knowledge, how it’s connected. If I had stayed here I would have never you know gone that far in that direction.

So you are very lucky you went to the States.

I did, I did I’m glad I made that change.

So your friends like you said call you a scientist Gonbad is that purely because you are now in the administrative side of things as opposed to?

Correct because scientist you know there is this saying that Scientist should be on tap not on top. So what happens is you know lot of people who are technical they tend to stay in technical jobs and those who go to the management are those with additional skills. And so good scientists sometimes tend to stay being scientist. They don’t get into the management side. So that’s why they call them management people you know. Scientist Gonbad!

So tell us a little about your job today. What is involves and what do you do on a day to day basis. It just sounds fascinating when I was reading about you actually. I was really quite fascinated.

It’s research but there are kinds of research. Now, if you take your audience you know, they probably know about market research. Most young people, there are lot of young people going into market research. And we have companies that do market research as a BPO industry. But there those who do natural science research. Discovery kind of thing you know. What we do is more policy research. We look for we have the luxury of sort of sitting back and deciding what are the interesting questions. We have telephone growth but is it reaching the bottom of the Pyramid? Those kinds of questions. And fortunately for us, there are people who fund this kind of work.  So we get paid for things you do anyway. So right now my work is at Learn Asia. We do ICT you know we look to see how information communication technology can be used to you know make peoples standard of living better and so on. So, I go beyond that and I see how can we make knowledge. Better use of knowledge and so. Recently the field that I picked is solid waste.

Ok, yes I was going to ask you about that.

Actually I thought of all kinds of sectors. I was invited to write this proposal. And I could pick any sector. I actually picked tourism. Then the economy was sort of going down. You need a growth industry. Garbage is growth.

Definitely a growth industry!

And also it’s interesting you know. We have 330 local governments. And they are like very interesting organizations. And they are like next to the president the political authority with the executive power is the mayor of the city.

Yes, actually something that I didn’t know until recently actually.

Yes, I mean we really should pay more attention to those institutions and particularly central government is one monolithic entity. So we have 330 you if you can’t work with 10, there is 320. So, its very interesting I thought how you can make them more competitive and corporative and make them perform better. So we try these sort of systems approach. So we work with a few and develop several tools and then you have to actually apply it on a larger scale. So now I’m talking to various provinces. Western Province waste management authority so that we can try out some of theme tools and get it tested.

It’s a fascinating work really. It must be very challenging as well to work with all these different bodies and you know try and get and streamline and push through. What’s the sort of typical day in your office? Do you have a typical day in the office?

Yes, actually we do lot of work just virtually. We do Skype a lot. I don’t necessarily go to office all the time. And you know we have our mobile on the laptop we have our mobile internet. And it’s always exchanging ideas. I don’t know, you might have some pictures of my office. It’s about ideas. But then we also write lots of when we deal with Mayors and others we write lots of letters also. So that part of it is much like regular office. But its always we have once in a week group meetings, research meetings where we brain storm ideas. But it is continuously brain storming and coming up with more ideas.

And that must be sort of a wonderful interaction with people and just you know kind of coming up with all these tings. It must be really fulfilling.

It is, it is.

What would you say as your favorite part of your job?

Favorite part of my job! Go to these local authorities and you try to explain you know the knowledge networks and how it relates and that’s my favorite part. Because, I think I really grew into it you know. Just convincing them. Like you know I would go and talk to this Public Health Inspectors. And these are people you know who have after their A/Levels they go on to jobs. They do not go to University not necessarily because they can’t but they did not get the opportunity. So there is this hunger for recognition, knowledge some of them and then when you tell them you know what they know. Because my research is about what I call more to knowledge. I am really interested in you know we think knowledge is in university and formal research institutes. But with new technologies now it’s possible for all kinds of people you know. You think you know something and you start a wiki and everybody knows that you know something to offer. So now the challenge is, now we know if you take each local authority, some new knowledge there and doing something interesting. So how do we you know, in the university they know how to write these things. These people they have it distributed. And they don’t know how to put together. So my research is about how you get this mode 2 knowledge. Somehow we don’t need to formalize. When you formalize it it’s not mode 2 anymore. Because as mode 2 is produced as you work you produce knowledge. As there working everyday they are doing something new and improving. My research is on this 330 local authorities. How do we get the little bits of knowledge. How do we get them to share it.

So some incredibly fascinating stuff.

Sujatha I wanted to ask you actually, how do you I mean do you find within your of profession within the local government. Do you find a lot of women working in various roles within different authorities?

The local government the political side the administrative side. The administrative side of course there are lot of women. But I’m more interested in the political side.  There is only 2% or 1.8% of the councilors are women. I was shocked when I heard that.

I actually that would be higher than that.

Actually interestingly the provincial council is I think 3.8% and close to 6% in the parliament. But local government you know that the institution closest to home you know. They do everything from pre natal care to crematoriums. It’s really strange.

I understand one of the things that you are very interested in doing is getting more to sort of enter the institution. How are you finding that? DO you find that women are quite receptive to coming in to work with the government?

Actually not under the present electoral system. Because the proportional representation, we work with a larger unit. There is a Women or even Men they have to canvass in a large area. You need lot more money, power and there is lot more competition even within the party. So that environment is point factor. Actually that is probably a very strong factor. So but even within the proportion representation system if the party gives support to the women, it’s very hard to get your name into the list. Impossible. When people ask me you know, where do we find these women? Ok we are asking for a quota. Because there is a new bill in the works and within that we are asking for at least, we are not saying like in India that you should reserve some of the seats to women. It is very interesting, say if there are 10 seats, 3 seats are reserved for women. Women compete with women. So the make sure that. But we are saying that at least candidates you know. Let candidates.  25% of candidates at least make sure that they are women. When they say it is hard to find women, I jokingly tell them. If you’re putting your not so competent son, why don’t you put your not so competent daughter.

I love it, I love it I love it!

You know so, your brother in law, your sister in law. So its not difficult. Initially we were looking for some women. Because I think we knew that we have 25% women in the council or chamber you know. There is 10 and there is 3 odd women. I think its going to make a difference. There is 20 and there will be 5, 5 women. That makes the difference.  Not that women are all saints. Some women can be as violent and you know intimidating. But I think overall, in general biologically you know we are different and so I think its going to have a effect.

Yes, that’s important to have actually. To sort of representation. Sujatha I want to ask you. What sort of aspires you? What do you find inspiring?

I donno. I think I am a curious person. That’s probably why it’s a terrible thing some times always trying to open things. Why? What is this? Why is it not working?. May be you never grow up. Always playing puzzles. I think curious. Everyday you wake up and you know my children tease me you know when ever I cook the same thing twice. Experimenting. Always experimenting!

Oh superb. That’s wonderful. And do you have like a sort of philosophy or ethos?

I think I feel privileged. So then you fell like you know you need to do something. You have all this, you have been given all these opportunities. My children are out of the house so, it’s really actually quite nice.  I shouldn’t say that. When my daughter was going to the university I thought I would never never recover from when she left. After she left I told her “You know what, it’s not so bad”. I think its, when I was in school, I was in the boarding school. And you know for the exam for the O level exam we had the best teachers better than everything. So I did very well. I think it was in the papers and everything.  And then I got this letters. Lots of letters and one letter came and I wish I kept it. He just said, “You know what, what you have done is not that great at all. You know you got all these these things. This is how I go to school. “. And I was just a school girl and some one from Anuradhapura or somewhere. A young boy wrote to me. Somebody my age. It just, it really made a big impression. At that time I dint keep that. I did not respond. I was in shock. You know it was a very brutal letter. But since that time I always felt that you know. Yes, actually we are not doing enough for all the opportunities we get.

Sujatha, tell us a little bit about your experiences. I know you started off at Peradeniya University and then you moved to the states. Did you do your PHD in chemistry in the states as well?

Yes I did. Really it was a nice experience. Where I was in a Colombo school in the boarding school. So when it was time to choose a university, I just put Peradeniya and Peradeniya only. To get as far away as possible.

Beautiful, it’s beautiful.

Culturally it was a wonderful experience. It was I think still some of the old Peradeniya. Some of the best drama’s came to town. We had a film society. You know the European, the east European films were there. I really enjoyed it very much. And it was a real eye opener for me. You meet so many people. Lot of people from politics. And very very interesting.

Yes. Must have been fascinatimg.

That was in the 71’s you know. I went during 72-76. Long time ago.

And after that you went to the states and you did your another degree.

Yes, that’s a PHD and then I came back to University of Colombo to9 teach.

Did you like teaching?

I did. I loved it. And I was quite settled and to be a faculty member at the university of Colombo. In two years, we had to go. I really was not happy about it. But Rohan was actually wasn’t interested as the university here wouldn’t hire him but he was offered a position in the states. So we went to the states because of that.

And you have three children. Two daughters and a son. And both your girls are in the states. Are they following your foot steps? Are they following?

They have not liked that world. I always try to be careful if I like them to do something. Never to say or talk about it. Actually my daughter is very at a very tender age you know. I just ask her to do something and she looked at me straight in the eyes and say “Amma are you trying to make me do things that you could not do yourself?” . I thought Rohan would have said that to me I could not believe she did. She is tiny was like take it back. And I have been very careful since then.

You were telling us about your daughters being in the University and trying not to push them into things.

Yes because they were in the American education system. It’s a wonderful system. You know it gives second chances third chances which is quite different from what we have here. You know here we have the Grade 5 scholarship. You know and then A/Level is like new car system. And they will continue it like the doctors would say the senior nurse can’t have a pay higher than the Junior MBBS. It’s amazing. But, in that way it is really a nice system. My daughter actually the youngest one, she loves to read. And she thought she was going for English literature. Then she said, why do I have to study this. And believe it or not she is a final year Engineer. So that’s how they move. Then she went to biology. That’s the nice thing the breath of education that they get. And they get to very quickly specialize. Which I think it’s wonderful.

And your son actually. I have read his blog. Which is very very interesting. So he lives in Colombo.

He does. He returned home and we dint expect him to. He insisted on coming and he seems to love it here.

Sujatha, how did you meet your husband?

Its actually about political representation for women. It started in Peradeniya. If you take the student council they are very competitive. Actually students belonged to different political parties and its like lot of violence.  And to my knowledge, the last 15 – 20 years there has not been girls in the council. You know what, even now I don’t think there are no Women in the council. So Rohan had this party. From his party he came and asked me if I want to contest. To be the Editor. One of the senior positions. I said ok. He thought he liked it that I dint think much about it. Actually I can be a bit rash you know I said ok. And then there were two girls in the ticket. I think there were eight in the ticket. There were three parties. You know what, the President came from one party. Hi secretary came from a  party and the treasurer from another and I was the editor. And I came from the third party. Except for the two girls, everybody else lost. So now Rohan is coming to me and said ok we now have our agenda we had our platform and now you should be taking it. I said, sorry I think the girls elected me. I said, look at the numbers. The girls, the theory those days was that the women would not vote for the other women because of jealousy. But the girls I guess they were so I don’t know they went out and voted for all the girls. So then we were fighting. Then he said, but you came on my ticket and you came because I put you on the ticket. But I said you know, these are Girls issues. But then you know when two people fight too much. The attraction grew. The two of us would have never met if not for the University you know. I am from a  rural. Two very different backgrounds. Peradeniya was out meeting point.

Wonderful. So Sujatha, what do you do when you are not working? When I read about you I understood that you are quite interested in fusion cooking. Again this whole experimenting.

Even in the states you know always our dinners were very Sri Lankan. But we were always experimenting. So actually when we come home for holidays and when the grand mother serves something, the kids used to say “This is not Sri Lankan food”. Because you know I really believe in colours you know you have to match the colours, textures and flavors.

Do you have a favorite dish that you have sort of come up?

Yes, I really like Middle Eastern. I like cuscus and Hummus.

I love hummus.

And then you know green. We use a lot of Gotukola and salads. I like the Middle Eastern. It is vegetarian but still.

I also understand that you are a reader of Sinhala novel as well?

Yes. Because you know, when we went to Peradeniya , we were really immersed in the local culture you know. Amaradheva, Nandha Malini and Victor Ratnayake you know. All that we were so immersed. Dramas and everything and we went to states and I came back and I found that I was so out of frame. And I did actually enjoy them as much as I did. And this was after 20 years. So I am trying to get back into things. So I am trying to read at least two books a month. I go out there and buy. I go to some of the dramas of Rajitha Dissanayake is great. So I try to get some of the local scene.

Yes, which is interesting. And this is what I found particularly fascinating about you actually. You decided to drop your pure sciences after you watched 2001?

Yes. It was funny you know. Rohan had watched the same movie and he all the way men I know “Wow”. They were all excited. I come out and said, “What is this?”. There was no green there was nothing. You know is this what science is. From then actually I have always really liked the green side of it. So science, dropping science there is lot of things to it. But that was the deciding moment.

Now we have the confession cam. Let us take a quick look of what your family and friends have to tell about you.

Sujatha was introduced to me by one of my friends. Actually not a long time just 2 years ago as a scientist working on solid waste management. And since we are working for local governance, I thought it’s a good opportunity to get to know this lady and then I called her once. In our conversation I started talking to her Dr Sujatha and in our conversation suddenly she said, don’t call me Dr Sujatha call me Sujatha. So I though what an amazing lady. And yes, our relationship started from there. And yes its still continuing. And you know it’s a good relationship. And she seems to be a very energetic person who’s working on multiple disciplinary. So that is how the relationship started. She is a as a friend, she shares with me lot of tings like you know its mostly on our personal levels like you know not the family not the other things but it is always something to do with local governance. You know and its so interesting now both of us are working together to promote women in politics. That is something that we need, the need of the hour. And she has become a real driving force behind this. She is I think much beyond me now. So with this relationship, when ever she talks to me she talks about this particular subject. Nothing about her son, nothing about her daughter or family. I even don’t talk about the family. The friendship is really based on our work. And she has become a real driving force and she wants to see women coming into politics specially at local levels. So its always our conversations are around this topic.

My mother I’ve known her my whole life. She’s a very intelligent woman. She’s very kind. I mean I think personally she has taught me ethical behavior, kind behavior. And she’s very sensitive. But my parents are both very educated. But I think they use that education to try to help other people as much as possible. I can talk to my mother about anything. She very well educated and I mean we grew up in the west so there is a different sort of life style out there which she understands. But she’s also, I mean her family is from Agalawatte. I mean even further rural. So she still has those like Sri Lankan values and you know that’s still being a part of her as well. We’ve always had books in the house. We have always had conversation in the house. So my mother is trained as a chemist but she’s also done work in education and environment and so on. So she’s always, she’s influenced me to learn more about science about math even though I never did very well in those things. But she tried to get us to learn about these things. But she also got me and my sister to learn about Buddhism and like that type and meditation and that side of life as well. I mean right now, my mother is doing interesting work like women in government. So she actually does well working with not MPs or anything but local government people. And you know talking to them organizing them, helping them educating themselves and so on. She does a lot of good grass roots work. Also with environmental issues. She works with the local garbage collectors. So not like the high level policy makers or NGOs or anything. But the people who actually clean up the garbage. The people who actually do the work. Which is something I admire. I mean rather talking about the ideal level which is also important I think she also gets down to the people who actually do the work.

Great. That was really interesting actually. Specially to hear from your son’s perspective. And he very genuinely seems to have a lot of appreciation for the work you do. I mean he should, it’s incredible. And I specially likes what your friend was saying how you are the driving force you know trying to get women into these positions which is very very important thing and I think we need to have more women.

Actually that women’s politics is actually my extra curricular work. But that’s the one with prominence. But again you know the way it says I am a activist. Actually I do some research with that. You know you should see I actually have got some diagrams of how people are connected. Because you know people don’t fund you. They don’t fund research for you to go and do no good. So I constantly tell people you know some other tax payers money we are spending. I tell my students you know. It’s very easy, sometimes we have to give things you know to get entry. It’s easy to stand on the stage and gives things you know. I hate doing that because, that’s not we are not there to give things. We are here to develop models. Take those models and ideas to policy makers and try to get them to do things. So we don’t do charity work we do research. It’s the difference I like to make.

I am about to put you on the spot now and ask you these ten questions. They are called ‘The Dreaded 10’.

First question. Do you believe in God?

No. I said I don’t need that hypothesis.

How wide is the gap between science and religion in your opinion?

I think it’s a quite a big wide. Quite a big gap but some people seem to interpret it in different ways.

Are you ever rude to strangers?

No.

Is it humanly possible to explain quantum physics in two sentences?

That’s difficult. Ok let me try. Let me do it. Quantum changes you know we have gradual changes. Quantum is when you know big change. Actually you know what I have not thought about Quantum physics for a long time. Quantum is chinks. Changes in chunks.

What career other than your own would you have like to have tried?

Definitely Engineering. Definitely because my life would have been I like building things.

What’s your most treasured possession?

Actually I am trying to get rid of things. I think my idealist is to you know shed things. I am a very minimalist person.

If your house was on fire, what are the three things that you would save?

Laptop. Everything is on that. Pictures, we have the kids pictures there. May be my earings and I have it in one place.

If you were to due and come back as someone or something what would it be?

I think the same thing. A little taller.

Good answer! What’s your stand on divorce?

I encourage it. I actually just the other day I was talking to somebody you know I think a lot of people who divorce they marry happily second time. I encourage it. I don’t think you should stay in loveless marriages.

Absolutely! What would your first reaction be if you discovered that the world was actually flat?

Well, then I would say you know it’s a totally different paradigm. That’s a difficult question. Its not that. We have seen it from the moon. Well you know if your fundamental assumptions have changed its like somebody says the boat turned the other way. So you say so what do I do with this.

Unfortunately we have come to the end of the show. Its actually sad to finish this. It’s been  absolutely lovely chatting to you and thank you so much for joining us today. And I was very excited to have you on the show and it has really been a real treat. And thank you.